Various + ANV

Is it ok to use "non linking" artists + ANV?

- Various
- Unknown Artist
- No Artist

EDIT

Various is linked. 2.5.5. refers to Other, Written By etc.

But they are linked to placeholders. I wasn't reffering to 2.5.5.

True, my mistake, but I still think it's not ok to use unknown artist + ANV.

It's ok as long as it's a valid variation:
http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/209833#2607878

i don't agree on this here
http://discogs.programascracks.com/Various-Artists-House-Beats-1/release/176949
but is this correct?

According to nik's comment in the thread I linked, the main artist ANV is acceptable.

what purpose does the ANV serve though? when it is obviously a compilation featuring a number of different artists which by discogs is a Various release..

auboisdormant: http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/245547#2918325

No ANV's for Various please.

A current statement by nik would be good.

Sorry folks, I have given conflicting advice a year apart there. Looks like we need to codify this in the guidelines :-/

Anyone got any preferences here? Should it be allowed?

Thanks!

my views are already stated, Various is a placeholder that states the obvious, no need for ANV such as Various Artists...

Would this mean that we could credit this: Furry Lewis, Bukka White & Friends* - Party! At Home
like this:
Bukka White & Friends* (Friends being ANV of Unknown Artist or Various)
Since those "friends" are just the people in the background talking.

EDIT. Or is Friends too far from being an ANV to Unknown Artist?

I'm totally in favor of allowing ANVs for placeholders. It allows to reflect exactly how credits are entered on release, for instance "Various Artists", "Unknown", "Trad." (not mentioning foreign languages) while still linking to the correct placeholder. Honestly I don't see any advantage of forbidding ANVs for placeholders, so I'd find it absurd to disallow their use in these cases.

@ anssisal: I think "Friends" is indeed too far away from Unknown Artist or Various to be an ANV of any of those. There should be (or is there already?) some standard way to handle those "Artist & Friends" credits, as they are fairly common.

0frg
There should be (or is there already?) some standard way to handle those "Artist & Friends" credits, as they are fairly common.

Should, but sadly isn't.
Here's the "source" to my post above: http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/345944

0frg
I'm totally in favor of allowing ANVs for placeholders. It allows to reflect exactly how credits are entered on release, for instance "Various Artists", "Unknown", "Trad." (not mentioning foreign languages) while still linking to the correct placeholder. Honestly I don't see any advantage of forbidding ANVs for placeholders, so I'd find it absurd to disallow their use in these cases.

Agreed.

0frg
There should be (or is there already?) some standard way to handle those "Artist & Friends" credits, as they are fairly common.

Shouldn't they be entered according to S2.11.1.?

Those "friends" on that Furry Lewis, Bukka White & Friends* - Party! At Home record aren't a band nor an orchestra, they are just few drunken people talking on the background..

Also would be wrong to credit them just as a Bukka White's "band/friends", because they talk behind both performers.

auboisdormant
Shouldn't they be entered according to §2.11.1.?

Apparently that's the method suggested by nik here: http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/265255#2940952

nik
I'd treat it as a group. It is like an "Artist Plus A Generic Band Of Musicians".

Though it's not ideal as pointed out by anssisal it's maybe the best option so far unless a "Friends" placeholder is created.

0frg
Mirva
Shouldn't they be entered according to §2.11.1.?

Apparently that's the method suggested by nik here: http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/265255#2940952

I've been following this advice for "Artist and Friends" until now:

nik
It does seem that 'Artist' & 'Friends' is problematical, because it can refer to:

A group of people with a main artist and revolving 'friends'

OR

A compilation with a main artist, with the 'friends' denoting a various grouping of people.

As it stands, the best way to list the first example is as a Solo Artist Plus A Generic Band Of Musicians http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-artist.html#Solo_Artist_Generic_Musicians

For the second example, listing the release main artist as either 'Various' or as the solo or main artist on the release, and moving the 'Artist and Friends' text to the title, seems to make more sense.

There is probably a lot of grey area inbetween those where the submitter would find it difficult to figure out.

An alternative would be to kick out Friends from that spot and use that as a generic placeholder, although I'm not sure how satisfactory a solution that is.

http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/332765#3111062

nik
Anyone got any preferences here? Should it be allowed?

I don't see why not. I subbed a French multi-artist compilation in which the labels show the artist as "Divers": Divers* - Le Disco Album

perhaps that would be a better solution indeed: create a group when the "friends" can be somehow identified and really collaborated with the name artist(s), and use a placeholder entry in other cases. Of course there would be grey areas but both kinds of clear cases could be handled better.

0frg
I'm totally in favor of allowing ANVs for placeholders.

+1

nik
Anyone got any preferences here? Should it be allowed?

When a variation of Various appears on the release as main artist: I don't see another option than using a ANV in that case.

Dr.SultanAszazin
I don't see another option

The option would be to use "Various" as main artist and note the ANV into the notes ...

...which is exactly what ANVs were designed to avoid :)

Ok, so ANV for non-linked special artists is ok, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it.

For Furry Lewis, Bukka White & Friends, what about having 'Friends' as an ANV for 'Friends Of Furry Lewis And Bukka White', in the same way we do for choruses from films etc as per RSG §2.9.1.

nik
For Furry Lewis, Bukka White & Friends, what about having 'Friends' as an ANV for 'Friends Of Furry Lewis And Bukka White', in the same way we do for choruses from films etc as per RSG §2.9.1.

Well not the worst option..
does that work with any "artist X & his friends/accomplices" case?

It may do. It just crossed my mind though, not sure that option has been brought up / explored before.

nik
Ok, so ANV for non-linked special artists is ok, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it.

-> Guidelines?

nik
It may do. It just crossed my mind though, not sure that option has been brought up / explored before.

nik, please see my prior thread from 5 months back about the "Friends" problem:
http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/345944

At the time I wrote there: "We need to have a generic Friends credit that is programmed in as a special artist like Unknown Artist, Traditional, No Artist, etc. That would solve our problems and prevent us having to create fictional "groups" in order to handle these situations."
I still think this is the best way to handle that.

nik
Ok, so ANV for non-linked special artists is ok, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it.

Good to have it settled :) As DonHergeFan says, it could be nice to just mention this in the guidelines, would be easier than having to find this thread back when an argument over this topic occurs.

nik
For Furry Lewis, Bukka White & Friends, what about having 'Friends' as an ANV for 'Friends Of Furry Lewis And Bukka White', in the same way we do for choruses from films etc as per RSG §2.9.1.

It could be a solution, but perhaps having a "Friends" placeholder would be easier.

There are also some similar cases to the "Friends" issue where I wouldn't really know how it should be reflected. For instance in DJ Heaven & Gabbers* - Le Silence Est... Massacre, "DJ Heaven & Gabbers" just means that some tracks on the compilation are made by DJ Heaven and other tracks by totally unrelated artists. It is then a use similar to "& Friends" in some cases.
It would be possible to enter "DJ Heaven & Gabbers" as a single entry and put all artists appearing in this compilation as of it, but it would be quite artificial since these artists have no actual connection with eachother apart of being on this compilation. The form "Friends Of ArtistName" couldn't be used because "Gabbers Of DJ Heaven" wouldn't mean anything :) Finally placeholders can't be used IMO since "Gabbers" wouldn't be a valid variation of "Various" (neither of "Friends" if it was a placeholder).
So I'm wondering if it would be better to create an "artificial" group or just to leave as is, ie. "Various" as release artist and "DJ Heaven & Gabbers" as part of release title.

anssisal
Well not the worst option..
does that work with any "artist X & his friends/accomplices" case?

0frg
"Gabbers Of DJ Heaven"

..apparently not :D

The placeholder solution could work with more cases if we allow more freedom for placeholders ANVs than for regular artists, but I'm not sure how the acceptable limit could be decided then.

nik
Ok, so ANV for non-linked special artists is ok, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it.

^...and as long as the ANV actually printed on the release (don't need people adding "Various Artists" ANV's to every "Various" entry which doesn't actually state anything of the sort.

0frg
There are also some similar cases to the "Friends" issue where I wouldn't really know how it should be reflected. For instance in Various - DJ Heaven & Gabbers - Le Silence Est... Massacre, "DJ Heaven & Gabbers" just means that some tracks on the compilation are made by DJ Heaven and other tracks by totally unrelated artists. It is then a use similar to "& Friends" in some cases.

For now:

Main Artist 1: DJ Heaven
Main Artist 2: Various

as in "Various"

...and an explanation in the release notes, such "Main artist listed as "DJ Heaven & Gabbers" where Gabbers carries a dual meaning of both the original slang meaning "mates" or "friends", and as in the musical style" or something like that, until a better solution is found or created.

?

yeah that's probably the best way to put it, thanks :)

ChampionJames
At the time I wrote there: "We need to have a generic Friends credit that is programmed in as a special artist like Unknown Artist, Traditional, No Artist, etc. That would solve our problems and prevent us having to create fictional "groups" in order to handle these situations." I still think this is the best way to handle that.

I have to disagree. :) I think the placeholders are problematic in many ways and they should be gotten rid of instead of creating new ones.

(And I don't mean they should be deleted completely, just opened up.)

Edit: Also crediting all "Friends" under one entry isn't really correct, as the "Friends" are often friends of a certain artist. I actually think nik's suggestion is the most reasonable one.

anssisal
does that work with any "artist X & his friends/accomplices" case?

I think it probably should be used only for the second type of releases described in this post: http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/359268#3349497 (the release that sparked the discussion was this: Lee 'Scratch' Perry & Friends* - The Black Ark Years (The Jamaican 7"s))

But I don't mind the current guideline either, I have to it. It's simple.

Thanks for the ruling on placeholder ANVs. I think that it should be allowed as it allows us to properly transcribe what is on the release - not just for display reasons, but to enhance the releases' info to be more correct.

auboisdormant
I have to disagree. :) I think the placeholders are problematic in many ways and they should be gotten rid of instead of creating new ones.

+1

I would still like to see all placeholders properly linked and opened.

And I still need to get around to my project of splitting all non-ANVs of Traditional (like Folklore) onto their own pages. Any volunteers, if I were to open a new thread and get it moving? ;)

auboisdormant
Edit: Also crediting all "Friends" under one entry isn't really correct, as the "Friends" are often friends of a certain artist. I actually think  nik's suggestion is the most reasonable one.

I do as well. A tricky topic - creating a generic 'group' specific to recordings is the only way to properly group them, IMO.

auboisdormant
Also crediting all "Friends" under one entry isn't really correct, as the "Friends" are often friends of a certain artist.

I don't think that follows. "Various" on one compilation doesn't denote the same "various artists" on some other compilation, unless by accident. And an artist can have 2 different releases credited to "Artist XYZ & Friends", and there may not be any of the same "friends" on one as on the other. The "traditional" writer of a Hindustani devotional melody is not the same "traditional" writer of "Mary Had a Little Lamb." So I don't see "Friends" being existentially different than "Various". They're both just vague for "some artists."

Kergillian
And I still need to get around to my project of splitting all non-ANVs of Traditional (like Folklore) onto their own pages. Any volunteers, if I were to open a new thread and get it moving? ;)

You know I'm in. :)

ChampionJames
The "traditional" writer of a Hindustani devotional melody is not the same "traditional" writer of "Mary Had a Little Lamb."

Oh, true, and it's no secret that I've wanted to split the Traditional entry for years. But that's another topic.

ChampionJames
and there may not be any of the same "friends" on one as on the other.

But they would be still "friends" of the same artist, thus "Friends of Artist". IMO it would make more sense than just grouping up all friends of all artists under one entry.

ChampionJames
So I don't see "Friends" being existentially different than "Various".

I do see them different in a sense that the "friends" are defined by the artist whose friends they are, and the credit also always appears on the release unlike Various. Maybe the method that el_duro has been following is also a valid option? I mean when the release is really a various artists release, why not just consider it part of the title?

any news? i'm having Ex, The & Guests

muntz
any news? i'm having Ex, The & Guests

firstly, if this band is legitimate it should be Ex & Guests, The http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/358697#3343045
and if it's legitimate, we should had The Ex's as of this group (and not the band The Ex)

The ANV guideline has been changed - http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/356624?lock=1#3371607

thanks!

2.5.5. You can use ANVs on unlinked credits, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it, and the ANV printed on the release.

This looks really wrong. Unlinked credits means not the same as a placeholder arist?

yes indeed, I read too fast. It was supposed to be about placeholder credits instead of unlinked credits right?

Thanks, I fixed that:

2.5.11. You can use ANVs on unlinked Special Artists, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it, and the ANV is printed on the release.

Hum, still not very clear IMHO. Placeholders aren't really unlinked, it's just that they link to an error page. I think the word "unlinked" is prone to confusion with unlinked credits, for instance "Written By", "Photography", "Artwork By". Wouldn't it be clearer that way for instance?
"You can use ANVs on placeholder artists such as Traditional, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it, and the ANV is printed on the release."

So this doesn't affect the "Artist & Random Friends" case?

BTW should the Folk, now that it's separated from Traditional?

anssisal

BTW should the RSG §2.3.1 be updated to include Folk, now that it's separated from Traditional?

+1

0frg
Hum, still not very clear IMHO. Placeholders aren't really unlinked, it's just that they link to an error page. I think the word "unlinked" is prone to confusion with unlinked credits, for instance "Written By", "Photography", "Artwork By". Wouldn't it be clearer that way for instance?
"You can use ANVs on placeholder artists such as Various, Unknown Artist and Traditional, as long as the ANV is a variation or translation of it, and the ANV is printed on the release."

+1

Thanks for the input folks, changed again http://discogs.programascracks.com/help/forums/topic/356624#3372143

Thanks, Nik!