UK / UK & Europe dispute

Please see here, https://discogs.programascracks.com/release/4240019-Simple-Life/history#latest
It is my understanding that a release with a UK cat# and an international cat# is entered as UK & Europe.

Backed up here by Nik:
https://discogs.programascracks.com/forum/thread/373656#3468163
'UK & Europe' was added to use when the release had indications (for example, distribution) that was specific to the UK as well as Europe. It should only be used in those situations (I think the original example in this thread is one).

Pinging FromLondon.
Your gratitude to me for fixing your submission has been noted by the way :)

andygrayrecords
It is my understanding that a release with a UK cat# and an international cat# is entered as UK & Europe.

Disagree. Common sense should be used. Tons of these type releases have a UK and a INT cat number. Typically the EU release has the EU cat number then the UK one below, neither dist in each others region.

andygrayrecords
'UK & Europe' was added to use when the release had indications (for example, distribution) that was specific to the UK as well as Europe.

Different discussion. This is when to use EU or UK & EU. In our example, this version was not dist in EU.

andygrayrecords
Your gratitude to me for fixing your submission has been noted by the way :)

You do excellent work in your updates. I have simply put a comment that I disagree about the country & removing the notes. I don't think anything needed fixing, what was wrong? Could use more info absolutely. (edit-typo)

andygrayrecords
Backed up here by Nik:
https://discogs.programascracks.com/forum/thread/373656#3468163
'UK & Europe' was added to use when the release had indications (for example, distribution) that was specific to the UK as well as Europe. It should only be used in those situations (I think the original example in this thread is one).

This. UK & Europe is correct.

Nik is talking about when to put UK & Europe or put Europe, he's is not talking about incorrectly adding EU to a release because of a Cat number on the rear of sleeve (not label) that was not distributed there.

As I said on the history, 14 Uk sellers selling it, no EU sellers selling it. Why add EU when it was not distributed there??

It doesn't matter who is currently selling it ! I bring back to the UK CD's and vinyl from Asia which I then sell on eBay. The fact I am the only seller on eBay does that make a Philippine release UK ? Of course not!

Going from info on the release and images I would agree UK & Europe.

Surely, the presence of an international cat# indicates that the release was not just UK distributed?
The fact that there are no EU sellers for this item is irrelevant. That just means nobody has one for sale, not that the item wasn't distributed in the EU.

+1 for UK & Europe from me.

So this release, Ike Strong - I Owe My Life To You must be UK then? Absurd.

FromLondon
what was wrong?

I was simply making a point that it sat there for seven months with wrong images and you did nothing.
I disabled the images, took scans, added them to the listing, added some detail to the sub and you are "unhappy" with the "market" which to be frank is a ridiculous notion anyway (sooner Discogs does away with that field, the better).

LolH
The fact that there are no EU sellers for this item is irrelevant.

Or could it be it wasn't distributed there so no one there has it to sell?
Let's put it this way, what proof do you have it was distributed in EU?

These INT cat numbers have been on Rocket releases for years and years:
https://img.discogs.programascracks.com/i2CHjbzhD8Fl4zcwkSN6fAvz03g=/fit-in/594x591/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2060684-1261599667.jpeg.jpg
https://img.discogs.programascracks.com/Yts9Xs5F3NL1MOQHRiX66SJJo=/fit-in/595x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-735014-1283024093.jpeg.jpg

Healing Hands UK (with INT below):
https://img.discogs.programascracks.com/NVTkcL70HLoWNz5KLiU9IlcZDjM=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1587136-1292353529.jpeg.jpg
Healing Hands German/EU (With UK below)
https://img.discogs.programascracks.com/b4aBQjObOHJJRJN7QhGpclrJaao=/fit-in/500x513/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1218331-1360094234-2036.jpeg.jpg

This is the standard rear layout - NOT where distributed!!

andygrayrecords
I was simply making a point that it sat there for seven months with wrong images and you did nothing.
I disabled the images, took scans, added them to the listing, added some detail to the sub and you are "unhappy" with the "market" which to be frank is a ridiculous notion anyway (sooner Discogs does away with that field, the better).

As I said on the sub notes, I don't get notifications for every pic added. I should but I don't. I check all notifications and act on them. So I didn't know wrong pics were added, and therefore did not remove them. Clearly in the notes I put paper labels.

As I said, you do great updates. I have often put a polite comment if I see an error, have I not?

But what you are basically saying is, all UK Rocket single releases from the 90's were distributed in EU (and vice versa). You are saying this because now instead of a small INT cat number on the back or label, it is now marked INT. Mostly EU had their own pressings.

This UK only release and coupling of Elton John - Club At The End Of The Street / Whispers has the INT number. They all do at this time. It is UK!!
http://eltonography.com/singles/club_at_the_end_of_the_street.html

andygrayrecords
...sooner Discogs does away with that field, the better).

Agree entirely. Country of manufacture would be a much more useful piece of data to enter here.

Fauni-Gena
UK & Europe is correct.

Not sure if it is correct, but it is the best of the options available. Could really do with a UK & International tag for releases like this.

LolH
Country of manufacture would be a much more useful piece of data to enter here.

Why?

Elton John - The Last Song
German/EU release. Large centre. INT number at top. UK below barcode.

Elton John - The Last Song
Uk release small centre. UK number at top, INT below barcode.

Standard sleeve layout for each region.

stevefreeman
Why?

Because it's actual data and as such it does not involve guessing where a release was distributed/marketed; having to chose if the country is 'UK', 'Europe' or 'UK & Europe' is exactly that, guessing.

Also, different 'Made in' text would make it easier to understand if a release is unique because of an actual artwork difference, which would limit the duplicates added based on 'different country'. Conversely, it would force s to add unique submissions that never get subbed because of the abuse of tags like 'UK & US' or 'US & Canada'.

handmedownurluv
Because it's actual data and as such it does not involve guessing where a release was distributed/marketed

That information is already available if the submission has the manufacturer listed.

I've counted four s (not including myself) that agree that UK & Europe is the correct way to go.

andygrayrecords
Backed up here by Nik:
https://discogs.programascracks.com/forum/thread/373656#3468163
'UK & Europe' was added to use when the release had indications (for example, distribution) that was specific to the UK as well as Europe. It should only be used in those situations (I think the original example in this thread is one).

Take away Niks example of distribution and re-read..."...the release had indications that was specific to the UK as well as Europe."
This is clearly the case here with a UK and an international cat#.

andygrayrecords
I've counted four s (not including myself) that agree that UK & Europe is the correct way to go

Make that 5

<stands in UK & Europe side of the fence>

andygrayrecords
Take away Niks example of distribution and re-read..."...the release had indications that was specific to the UK as well as Europe."

He is talking about wether to use EU or UK and EU. He is not talking about a solid centre 7". He is not talking about adding EU from a INT cat number on most UK issues. You can't link to a comment about something entirely different. That thread was about a Dido CD album.

Other s agreeing with you does not make it correct.]

My reasoning.

1) Solid centre for UK. General rule large labels issues large centre for EU.
2) There was also a EU release with large centre.
3) Standard across all these releases to add what the EU or UK cat number was. This was how Phonogram did it.
Status Quo - Burning Bridges (On And Off And On Again) UK sleeve, the EU sleeve was different. UK release!
4) No mention of EU/UK distribution on the release in the other region.
5) Elton John fan site = UK

And finally 6) common sense. Everyone selling on Discogs it is in UK!! Fourteen sellers. Not one seller: fourteen!

Your reasoning for adding Eu to the Uk release. Oh it must be, it has INT number on the back!

FromLondon
Your reasoning for adding Eu to the Uk release. Oh it must be, it has INT number on the back!

Um no...my reasoning is because Nik has said so.
Plain and simple.

And by the way there are two for sale, one in the US and one in Canada.
As far as I know, common sense has no place on Discogs, i find it best to leave it at the door on your way in and pick it back up when you leave.

Again your reasoning that claims that a solid Centre was only for UK distribution is flawed!
Almost all UK pressed releases that subsequently had European distribution were solid Centre when manufactured. In the UK it was common to "Dink" or remove the Centre of these releases for both European market and for domestic jukebox market. It was an option that was often offered by record label distribution reps.
The Dinking of releases was carried out post manufacture. Yes on some releases the Centre label was changed to accommodate the drinking process, but on others it wasn't and on these it was common to find type cut off or trimmed by the drinking process.
I Used to order copies both undinked and dinked knowing that both European/ US sales as well as jukebox sales required dinking, these were the same UK pressings! So you are incorrect in saying only manufactured large Centre hole cut copies were only produced for the European Market. And as a result a small hole would indicate UK only distribution. A small hole version just means in many cases an undinked copy. And as discussed on countless other forums Dinking is a form of post manufacture variation.

With the introduction of the solid injection molded Centre it became easier to dink releases as they often had a guide for the drinking tool!

I'll see if I can get Nik to chip in.

andygrayrecords
As far as I know, common sense has no place on Discogs, i find it best to leave it at the door on your way in and pick it back up when you leave.

I can definitely agree with that some days! :)

steve.fletcher
Again your reasoning that claims that a solid Centre was only for UK distribution is flawed!

It's one of 6 things that point me to UK only release. Find me a label dinked copy of this one...you won't find it.

steve.fletcher
Almost all UK pressed releases that subsequently had European distribution were solid Centre when manufactured. In the UK it was common to "Dink" or remove the Centre of these releases for both European market and for domestic jukebox market. It was an option that was often offered by record label distribution reps.

This is flawed in so many ways! So a rep came round the German shop with a UK copy saying he can dink it??

Gemany issued their own large centre version nearly all the time (Phonogram).

FromLondon
Why add EU when it was not distributed there?

Brexit anyone?

So let's see the facts :
Release has both UK and European/ International distribution codes, would indicate that distribution is to more areas than just the UK.

Size of Centre hole irrelevant see reasoning above !
The fact that only UK sellers on Discogs have a copy. Is again irrelevant for reasons I gave in an earlier post!

The fact that there was a large hole version listed irrelevant.... This may actually be a small hole UK version that has been dinked !

Elton John Fan Site states categorically that no UK pressed releases were distributed in Europe ?? No, Please show this ! Or stop coming out with claims that you cannot substantiate.

Calle_jr
Brexit anyone?

Let me fix that, "Brexit Everyone!"

stevefreeman
Why?

Because it is factual, rather than 'made up from the best guess we can make'...

+1 UK / Europe
+1 Country = Manufacture

i speak from experience. In the 1980's I used to supply a number of independent record stores in with UK releases. For these often the UK pressings were initially small hole and were indeed dinked to order by the label.

So you went round the shops as a rep?

Incidentally, the same numbering on sleeve is also on the FFRR releases.

UK Lil Louis & The World* - I Called U (But You Weren't There)
EU Lil Louis & The World* - I Called U (But You Weren't There)

I was not a rep, working for a record label. I lived in for 4 years, but travelled back and forth to the UK every couple of weeks or so. Being a music collector I used to visit all the record stores in the region, and as UK music was big in at the time, would take orders from these stores. Which were then ordered through a friends UK record store. And yes you could order copies of a single with as many dinked as you wanted.

Of course European pressed releases had large centre holes thats how the European market generally was. But UK pressed and produced releases were often dinked for The European market?

steve.fletcher
...were then ordered through a friends UK record store.

Then not distributed in !

A lot of these UK releases were distributed in through regular German distribution channels, hence having both UK and International numbers on sleeve, but like any imports was cheaper to get from the UK and in many cases quicker. Not always released at exactly the same time.

andygrayrecords
I've counted four s (not including myself) that agree that UK & Europe is the correct way to go.

avalon67
<stands in UK & Europe side of the fence>

And you can count another one too.

This is UK and Europe.
As confirmed by nik
It has a twin cat. no. system prefacing a UK and Int. (here = Europe) cat. no. and those dual features designate it as UK and Europe *ACCORDING TO THE CURRENTLY ACCEPTED HOUSE POLICIES ON HOW WE MIGHT BEST DETERMINE COUNTRY ON THE DATABASE*

Now there has been a lot of sensible comment above about the imperfection and vagary of the current system of classification, agreed by many of us to be highly artificial, and so *AS AND WHEN THE POLICIES FOR DETERMINATION CHANGE* such designation may be reviewed.

But that's not where we are at now - and we can only classify this now according to where we are at now.

Items marked for UK & (rest of) Europe obviously could not have been first-sold in both regions... so some percentage of the ones marked like this would have gone to the UK and thus only the UK cat# would've been acknowledged for inventory and chart purposes, and the remaining quantity would have gone to other countries, perhaps in addition to editions made exclusively for those regions. It stands to reason that there may be times when the entire quantity remained in the UK and other times when the entire quantity was exported.

So if there is evidence to this conclusion for certain items, and we get some agreement on it, then sure, say it's UK only. But if you do that, please recognize that it's a bit different than what we very reasonably deduce from the presence of UK & Int markings on the item, so an explanation would have to be in the release notes to say how we know the item was marked for multiple regions but really was exclusively sold in one or the other.

For this particular case I am not sure the argument is all that persuasive. As such, it may be best to just leave it as UK & Europe, and use the comments/reviews section to state your opinions to the contrary.

The problem with these types of releases and the intended market is that you never know. In general I'd say that UK releases that has both a UK cat# and an int.cat# is mostly distributed only in the UK when there's a German and/or Netherlands press like in this case.
I live in Sweden and we used to always get the German or Dutch pressings. The UK pressings would be imports.
Why the int.cat# then?. Because sometimes European mainland plants might be lacking resources so UK presses would have to be shipped across the channel.
In this particular case it's pressed and printed in so it might be even more likely that it was distributed in mainland Europe as well but it's probable that the whole batch was shipped to the UK to be distributed there only.

So UK or UK & Europe? I don't really care. If it was me who submitted it then I would have tagged it as UK only but I wouldn't have changed it if somebody else submitted it as UK & Europe.

Bong
Because sometimes European mainland plants might be lacking resources so UK presses would have to be shipped across the channel.

This was a common practice during my time in the business.

Bong
I'd say that UK releases that has both a UK cat# and an int.cat# is mostly distributed only in the UK when there's a German and/or Netherlands press like in this case.

Some sense!

Because what you guys are proposing here is:
The UK copy: call it UK & EU
The EU copy: call it UK & EU.
..making both wrong.

They designed the sleeve and included the number released in the EU territory, and switched this around when releasing the EU release. LONG before the 1993 Elton example above, the EU number was included on UK releases: from the 80's onwards....the inclusion of the number means nothing. Originally just in smaller print. :
Status Quo - Ain't Complaining

Unless it says 'Distributed in by..' or the like, the INT cat number inclusion should not mean the country of release on these 7"/12"/CD single releases.

You're hacking up the database saying all the Quo, EJ, Dire Straits, Def Leppard, Metallica etc are UK & EU if they are UK or EU.

UK: Def Leppard - Heaven Is
EU: Def Leppard - Heaven Is Never never never dist in the UK.

Regards, FL

Should be UK & EU. And in the notes it should advise pressed in UK or pressed in or wherever if that is stated on the record or sleeve. That is how you can distinguish a copy.

Country is distribution as is known, and you cannot chose to ignore the International cat number or price code just because it doesn't fit in with what you imagine it to be, or wish it to be based on your own preferences.

As many have said in this thread, many UK pressed releases were distributed throughout Europe, the same as EU releases were often distributed in the UK.

The UK is understood to be part of Europe (different from EU, timely topic).

"UK & Europe" was an extraneous tag added to be used where the release is explicitly marked as being distributed in the UK and Europe, as separate entities.

Don't get too caught up in in. Unless it is explicit, just "Europe" is fine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#Definition

Nik: The tag should only be used when the release specifically stated that is is distributed in the UK and Europe.

Note here the word distributed. Having the INT cat number is not distribution.

steve.fletcher
it was common to find type cut off or trimmed by the drinking process.

Freudian comment of the month!

FromLondon
Nik: The tag should only be used when the release specifically stated that is is distributed in the UK and Europe.

Note here the word distributed. Having the INT cat number is not distribution.

Confused.
Are you quoting nik or correcting him?

If the former, you misquoted and changed the meaning of the sentence.

nik said: "UK & Europe" to be used where the release is explicitly marked as being distributed in the UK and Europe, as separate entities., because The UK is understood to be part of Europe

FL said "The tag should only be used when the release specifically stated that is is distributed in the UK and Europe.

I PM'ed him, and copied and pasted from his reply.

And as I keep saying, the other debate was about when to use Europe or UK & Europe, not IF to use it with a INT code on sleeve. DIFFERENT DEBATE: OUT OF CONTEXT!

Ooooo, painful to find your type cut off or trimmed by the dinking process!!!

I love this topic.

FromLondon
Having the INT cat number is not distribution.

No, of course not. But, it's potential distro. That's about it... best enter what's listed, than have to guess at it.

True, the likelihood that regional (country) variations stayed within that specific territory, say 90% of the time, is factual - but since it can't be proven, best error with caution (e.g. simply what's printed) - unless concrete proof can be established otherwise.

hatfulofelt
say 90% of the time, is factual

So
The UK copy: call it UK & EU
The EU copy: call it UK & EU. is fine? 99% incorrect??

I of course, made up a percent. Define "incorrect"?

hatfulofelt
Define "incorrect"?

Saying the Uk copies were distributed in the EU, and the EU copies were distributed in the UK. They nearly always wern't.

So
The UK copy: call it UK & EU
The EU copy: call it UK & EU. is fine? (I answered your question) :)

Because by the same false logic, the country should be taken from the rights.
These of course are all Scandinavian:
The Pearls / The Rhythm Of The Pearls - Third Finger, Left Hand / Little Lady Love Me

FromLondon
Saying the Uk copies were distributed in the EU, and the EU copies were distributed in the UK. They nearly always wern't.

I tend to agree. Was just saying it's usually very hard (or impossible) to know for certain. I think some cases are way clearer than others, in of likelihood. The variables are often: the labels, center hole, whether INT is on the top or bottom of a grid, the format (poster sleeve, limited hologram cover, etc.). But the bottom line is siding with what's listed on the release.

Wouldn't it be better to be 1% wrong though than 99% wrong?

Also, it does not say it's distributed in the other region, it is only putting the other regions cat number on the release.

andygrayrecords
It is my understanding that a release with a UK cat# and an international cat# is entered as UK & Europe.

- Please don't do that, UK is in Europe, you should just use Europe. UK & Europe is meant to be used for a very small use case where there is 1) product release in the UK, 2) same product released in Europe - and 3) when UK & Europe would be used, when the same product was also released in "UK and Europe". The pseudo territory is massively abused and making a rule like you have will encourage even more people to do that, please don't!

uzumaki
- Please don't do that,

Well, I'm not alone here. You obviously know what Nik meant when he said
'UK & Europe' was added to use when the release had indications (for example, distribution) that was specific to the UK as well as Europe. It should only be used in those situations

If nik, didn't talk in riddles all the time it wouldn't be a problem.

As it is now, he has basically done away with UK and advocated using Europe.
The UK is understood to be part of Europe (different from EU, timely topic).

"UK & Europe" was an extraneous tag added to be used where the release is explicitly marked as being distributed in the UK and Europe, as separate entities.

Don't get too caught up in in. Unless it is explicit, just "Europe" is fine

FromLondon
They nearly always wern't.

Translates as sometimes they were....I thank you!

uzumaki
Please don't do that, UK is in Europe, you should just use Europe.

The whole point is they were not distributed in Europe at all (only UK).

Folks, I think this is getting twisted / over-complicated. I kinda wish we hadn't introduced the "UK and Europe" tag, there was some discussion at the time and I took some convincing it was a good thing. The purpose of this tag is the following:

If a release is distributed in the UK, it is a UK release.
If a release is distributed in Europe (can include the UK), it is a European release. (NOTE this is different from the EU)
If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

If in doubt, DO NOT USE the "UK and Europe" tag.

nik
release explicitly calls out the UK as a region

So to clarify a release with a cat# identified as a UK cat#, and also has an international cat# such as Elton John - Simple Life should be entered as UK & Europe.
image

andygrayrecords
So to clarify a release with a cat# identified as a UK cat#, and also has an international cat# such as Elton John - Simple Life should be entered as UK & Europe.

no, as it doesn't

nik
explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc")

So basically no more 'UK & Europe' when BIEM/MS are the RS, when a copyright holder ends in 'Ltd.', when the artists or companies are UK-based, when a UK cat. # is present or because 'I bought this in country X/Y/Z'.

Sounds great.

nik
If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

andygrayrecords
So to clarify...

This is the crux of the matter Nik.
Should it be assumed by adding a INT cat number to a UK release sleeve/label, or UK cat number to a Europe release sleeve/label, that is was distributed there?
I think we agree that nearly always they wern't distributed in the other region (I can't think of an example that specifically was), but I think should only be where distributed, and Andy thinks the INT code means to add both countries to release country.

handmedownurluv
'UK & Europe' when BIEM/MS are the RS

This should never have been anyway. BIEM is the international organisation of rights societies, not a rights society. BIEM/MS would typically mean UK.

FromLondon
This is the crux of the matter Nik.

Exactement!

FromLondon
Should it be assumed by adding a INT cat number to a UK release sleeve/label, or UK cat number to a Europe release sleeve/label, that is was distributed there?

I am not sure exactly how these things are organized in Europe, but international catalog numbers are frequently printed on US releases where it's definitely not distributed in Europe. I would not consider those US and not US + Europe / International releases.

I think the key there is specifically mentioning countries of distribution and not just non-native cat#'s.

HALLELUJAH!

Thanks Nik/Brent.

Diognes_The_Fox
I would not consider those US and not US + Europe / International releases.

I assume you mean:
Diognes_The_Fox: I would consider those US and not US + Europe / International releases.

FromLondon
I assume you mean: I would consider those US and not US + Europe / International releases.

Yes, I'm great with words today / this week / forever.

handmedownurluv
So basically no more 'UK & Europe' when BIEM/MS are the RS, when a copyright holder ends in 'Ltd.', when the artists or companies are UK-based, when a UK cat. # is present or because 'I bought this in country X/Y/Z'.

Sounds great.

Yes folks, this is sarcasm.

Diognes_The_Fox
but international catalog numbers are frequently printed on US releases where it's definitely not distributed in Europe.

I wouldn't mind seeing some examples of this - that aren't '80s CDs.

nik
If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

A similar reason could be the allocation of rights societies:
BIEM/MS (for the UK) and GEMA/BIEM (for Europe), often found on 1 and the same release. London Records use to do that all the time.

sebfact
A similar reason could be the allocation of rights societies:
BIEM/MS (for the UK) and GEMA/BIEM (for Europe), often found on 1 and the same release. London Records use to do that all the time.

7.2.1. Rights Society .........so at best, the info is only a clue, a piece in the puzzle -- not the final word.

FromLondon
7.2.1. Rights Society .........so at best, the info is only a clue, a piece in the puzzle -- not the final word.

Truer words have never been written.

hatfulofelt
Yes folks, this is sarcasm.

Maybe, maybe not. That doesn't change the content of the post, which is pretty accurate.

FromLondon
7.2.1. Rights Society .........so at best, the info is only a clue, a piece in the puzzle -- not the final word.

And rightly so. However, when a record company cares to distinguish rights societies between Europe and the UK (or it was enforced by the RS, but either way) on a release, the UK & Europe tag comes handy.

A Factory Compact Disc. No logos on it, arguable on Factory.

sebfact
And rightly so. However, when a record company cares to distinguish rights societies between Europe and the UK (or it was enforced by the RS, but either way) on a release, the UK & Europe tag comes handy.

Agreed, perfect example.

sebfact
when a record company cares to distinguish rights societies between Europe and the UK (or it was enforced by the RS, but either way) on a release, the UK & Europe tag comes handy.

Not sure what you mean by 'enforced by the RS' but the UK & Europe territory doesn't 'come in handy', if a UK and another country in Europe's rights society is shown that would point you to using Europe, not UK & Europe.

uzumaki
if a UK and another country in Europe's rights society is shown that would point you to using Europe, not UK & Europe.

Depends on other variables mentioned prior of course, like distro info and cat#. And there's still no consensus.

hatfulofelt
there's still no consensus.

- Nik's comments above are very clear to me, what consensus do you seek?

uzumaki
if a UK and another country in Europe's rights society is shown that would point you to using Europe, not UK & Europe.

If it's clearly distinguished on a release why should we ignore it? There's an ever growing tendency to die-hard separate releases by any means (e.g. when a GmbH is missing, even though it's proven that there only ever was one company; or when a comma is missing, or a digit in a barcode). And now you light handedly want to ignore what is factually on a release? If the record company did so, we should not try to overrule that for convenience reasons.

Maybe I misunderstood you - definitely list the rights societies (but don't infer a made-up release territory from them).

uzumaki
Nik's comments above are very clear to me

This doesn't seem clear, since people are still very much in disagreement (as I see it): "If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region..."

uzumaki
what consensus do you seek

One that (I feel) addresses this better:

sebfact
If it's clearly distinguished on a release why should we ignore it?

+1

uzumaki
(but don't infer a made-up release territory from them)

?

uzumaki
but don't infer a made-up release territory from them

How could I infer a made up territory when it is clearly stated like that on a release? It's evident that there are different territories: UK and Europe.

nik
"If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region..."

sebfact
when a record company cares to distinguish rights societies between Europe and the UK ... on a release, the UK & Europe tag comes handy. ... How could I infer a made up territory when it is clearly stated like that on a release? It's evident that there are different territories: UK and Europe.

- just checking, are you saying if a release says rights societies MS and GEMA you would list the release UK & Europe? - this does not call out the UK as a separate region from Europe, it lists a UK and a German rights society, both of which are in Europe.

uzumaki
just checking, are you saying if a release says rights societies MS and GEMA you would list the release UK & Europe? - this does not call out the UK as a separate region from Europe, it lists a UK and a German rights society, both of which are in Europe.

I believe he is referring to examples like: https://img.discogs.programascracks.com/EWH7c1qUySL7ivNlzgq94mIHGMk=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-355030-1340121876-4555.jpeg.jpg

That release does create a distinction between the UK & Europe, now if the rights societies don not carry such distinction then it should be Europe only.

Thanks phallancz, with that example I agree the record company has called out UK & Europe.

phallancz
That release does create a distinction between the UK & Europe, now if the rights societies don not carry such distinction then it should be Europe only.

Yup.

Hi, would "Distributed in the U.K. by BMG Records. Distribué en Europe par BMG/ARiola. Vertreib in Europa durch BMG/Ariola be "

nik
If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

?

De Deurzakkers - Doe Ze Thuis De Hartelijke Groeten

I personally would take this ruling the same as the Rights Society ruling:

7.2.1. Rights Society .........so at best, the info is only a clue, a piece in the puzzle -- not the final word.

To me it seems on this release it is standard text on Ariola releases, as I seriously doubt this was ever distributed in the UK!!! Same as Eros Ramazzotti - Musica È

Having said that, I can't see someone voting it wrong if you did put UK & Europe. I personally would put where it was actually distributed.

I agree with FL, doubt it would be distributed in the UK, but we document what is on the release, so UK and Europe is fine.

Yes, we doubt very much this was released outside of NL, a Dutch carnaval song which would probably only have a market in the south of NL as that is where it is celebrated. We will leave the country as it was.

andygrayrecords
but we document what is on the release, so UK and Europe is fine.

Yes, except for the country-tag.... we document where the record was actually released, not what codes related to certain countries are present on the sleeve or labels.

jansenENjanssen
We will leave the country as it was.

Which is the best thing you can do in this case I think.

JeroenG8
we document where the record was actually released

.

jansenENjanssen
"Distributed in the U.K. by BMG Records. Distribué en Europe par BMG/ARiola. Vertreib in Europa durch BMG/Ariola be "

Nobody mentioned codes.
The release clearly states "U.K" and "Europe"

andygrayrecords
Nobody mentioned codes.
The release clearly states "U.K" and "Europe"

Yes, but using a bit of common sense, neither UK nor Europe would apply for the song from the single, have a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q2IQRbqNSg . Possibly Belgium (Brabant and Limburg areas) as well, but would not be logical to release this elsewhere.

jansenENjanssen
Hi, would "Distributed in the U.K. by BMG Records. Distribué en Europe par BMG/ARiola. Vertreib in Europa durch BMG/Ariola be "

Common sense #1 says there's no UK distro, despite what's printed. Common sense #2 says use what's printed, don't second guess. Discogs guidelines side with the latter, not the former.

The Dutch would not be that cruel to subject others to this music ;-)

jansenENjanssen
The Dutch would not be that cruel to subject others to this music ;-)

Ha ha. In all seriousness, 2 more thoughts:

1) In order to go against what's printed, I feel one would have the burden of proof on them that it's somehow incorrect. With this 7" here, no matter how much it might not make sense to have UK distro for it, there's simply no way to prove that it didn't, as I see it. Which leads to...

2) Labels do screwy stuff all the time. They wouldn't be labels if they didn't. All that that means, is anything's possible. Without proof, I'd side with what's written, however dubious it might appear.

That'll teach us to help in a mass edit, only wanted to update a studio ;-) We could email the artists if they know more, they are still around.

jansenENjanssen
only wanted to update a studio ;-)

Funny how that works now, isn't it? You go in, thinking just for a moment, to tidy things up... and 5 weeks later, you could still be debating something wholly unrelated that unknowingly comes up.

jansenENjanssen
We could email the artists if they know more, they are still around.

True. Of course, the thing about that is, whatever they might say/feel/think still isn't relevant, in Discogs .

I see the country was changed to not agree with what's printed... so that's arguably not correct. Do I personally care either way? No. I'm part of the problem then - not that there is one.

hatfulofelt
I see the country was changed to not agree with what's printed... so that's arguably not correct.

We had not checked every edit on the submission, only the original https://discogs.programascracks.com/release/3030815-Doe-Ze-Thuis-De-Hartelijke-Groeten/history?diff=5
or that SillyKees had changed the country with no explanation after either. There is a lot of that going on, very common amongst most s not to explain their edits. It does not help matters for others that edit afterwards.

Oh believe me, I totally understand. :)

andygrayrecords
Nobody mentioned codes.
The release clearly states "U.K" and "Europe"

The release indeed has a text printed that says "Distributed in the U.K. by BMG Records. Distribué en Europe par BMG/ARiola. Vertreib in Europa durch BMG/Ariola be".
With big labels this often means that it is a standard text printed on every release, which doesn't say anything about the specific release.
BMG/Ariola is notably one of these big labels, they do this all the time.
That means that the presence of such text on BMG/Ariols releases is totally unreliable.
Fact is that Discogs documents the country where it was actually released, not what is printed on it.
When these two conflict with eachother, the actual country will be documented.

jansenENjanssen
Distributed in the U.K. by BMG Records. Distribué en Europe par BMG/ARiola. Vertreib in Europa durch BMG/Ariola

nik
If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

Can't get much plainer.