Is there really any point in doing this ? Surely the point of a proper rotary mixer is the circutary and the valve stages and the fact that they're analouge. I don'tr really know which mixers it is possible to get kits for, but I have heard there are one's for Vestax and Pioneer models. Does anyone know if these are analouge mixers to behgin with ?
My friend and I both had DJM-3000 back in the day, and bought the aftermarket rotary add on for it. This was before we knew each other, but happening around the same time. We both abandoned it after a few months of trying it out (sold on ebay or to a friend etc).
I always thought the DJM-3000 sucked and it ended up feeding into my overall contempt for Pioneer products in general. The knobs worked well enough, but you're putting rotary knobs on something, that to me at least, amounted to an over priced kiddy toy during that era.
Reasons the DJM-3000 sucks, with or without a rotary:
-Ugly
-Odd shape for home dj booth arrangements
-Efx were dodgy
-Sliders would fail (saw this happen randomly at parties, twice during other people's live sets. Then it started happening at home to me eventually). A channel slider would be down at 0 but still blasting music at near max volume, so you can imagine the chaos that this caused for the poor dj's it was happening to live.
The sound of the mixer won't change. It's just a matter of preference, if you like very slow mixes rotary is good. If you like to be able to bring in tracks quickly line faders are better. Of course you can also do slow mixes with line faders..
arteom
The sound of the mixer won't change. It's just a matter of preference,
Actually it does. This is much of the reason why rotary mixers are having a comeback. The older analouge mixers such as the one used my David Mancuso in his loft system give really sweet sparkly sound that is only available through analouge technology. That's my whole point of this thread and why I was asking if there was any point in rotary kists for certian mixers.
...oh wait, I get you ! The rotary kit itself doesn't change the quality of the audio output. That is what I was asking. Cheers ! It's baisicaly just knobs instead of sliders. Bit pointless I guess....unless an analouge mixer.
jondavey
This is much of the reason why rotary mixers are having a comeback. The older analouge mixers such as the one used my David Mancuso in his loft system give really sweet sparkly sound that is only available through analouge technology.
They are rotary mixers though, they were built with high quality audio in mind. Putting a rotary kit on a standard mixer won't improve the sound, just change how you can mix. Perhaps I'm missing your point here?
I'm of the opinion that there is little point in cheap rotaries or rotary kits, if you really want a rotary for the sound then you need to be prepared to spend. You can find some good value in second hand ones but often they will need repairs/servicing which can be a pain.
jondavey
The rotary kit itself doesn't change the quality of the audio output. That is what I was asking. Cheers ! It's baisicaly just knobs instead of sliders.
The point in choosing rotary knobs instead of sliders/(cross)faders is a haptical one.
It depends on the usecase and personal preference.
Generally speaking rotary knobs offer more detail in the workflow as they are more precise
But if you're i.e. heavy into cross-fading due to your type of music, rotaries are likely not for you.
jondavey
...oh wait, I get you ! The rotary kit itself doesn't change the quality of the audio output. That is what I was asking. Cheers ! It's baisicaly just knobs instead of sliders. Bit pointless I guess....unless an analouge mixer.
Yea its just rotary pots instead of sliders, with literally nothing else changing.
It might be worth trying just to see if it suits your mixing style, then you can look at nicer mixers if it does. I always wanted to try it, but found them limiting when I finally did. If you're in the UK I'd think you have access to Allen and heath mixers secondhand. Those can sound decent and mc audio offers rotary kits for them.
What I've thought about is routing the turntables to external phono preamps, then back into the mixers line input. Bying the phono section in the mixer. But all this assumes that you are using needles which are worth the trouble.
Jon you can buy my Xone 42 w/ MC Audio rotary kit if you want. I'd give you a discount for going direct outside of ebay. Basically only thing wrong with it is Channel 3 didnt survive the cut over to rotary. But it sounds great.
Ah, I just had a look at your listing. It's a little out of my price range. To be honest I've been looking at the Omnitronic TRM 202. But like some one already said...
gmos
I'm of the opinion that there is little point in cheap rotaries or rotary kits, if you really want a rotary for the sound then you need to be prepared to spend
So I don't know if it's worth the bother.
But...
arteom
It might be worth trying just to see if it suits your mixing style,
For some time now, actually since I had a mixer with a leaky fader, I have exclusively used the volume controlls. I like to slowly bring a track in over time and fade out slowly too, for the most part anyway. I don't get involved in chopping, transforming or scratching really. So this is why the rotary rute sounded appropriate
arteom
What I've thought about is routing the turntables to external phono preamps, then back into the mixers line input. Bying the phono section in the mixer. But all this assumes that you are using needles which are worth the trouble.
That sounds interesting. What is the level of stylus that beging to make this worth wile ?
Have you seen the Ecler Warm 2? I was considering that before I ended up trying a rotary conversion kit for a xone 22.
As far as what needle would make an external phono stage worthwhile, good question. I have a somewhat decent external phono stage, don't know that I ever tried it with my dj carts. I've never had all too high standards for sound when mixing. But I will give it a try and report back, once I'm back from holiday. The needles I use now are Nagaoka tips on shure m44 body. I would think it improve noticeably when using an external stage vs one in my mixer, a xone 32.
I tried this a few years ago with a Xone 42, a Cambridge external phono stage, and a technics 1200 with an Audio Technica VM95ML needle, and I could not notice any difference vs just playing through the mixer
FWIW, my ears are not the best (I’ve never been close to being an audiophile) and I mainly listen to 35 year old club music. As such, it may be more to do with that than the overall concept of bying the mixer phono stage
Yes I have salivated over that mixer. It looks lovely ! If money was no matter I get one...well that's actually a lie, if money was no matter I'd get an old rotary mixer from the 70s. But if I had a few spare quid, I'd go for that Eller.
arteom
What I've thought about is routing the turntables to external phono preamps, then back into the mixers line input.
I'm stilll trying to work this out. So you'd need two pre-amps ? And bying the phone stage on the mixer would allow for a truely analouge signal chain ?
...surely it's just be cheeper and easier to an analouge mixer ?
The phono preamps are in the analog domain, bying the mixers phono stage wouldn't effect any analog/digital stuff. I wouldn't get terribly hung up on analog vs digital thing. It's a marketing term that justifies high cost shit. The A&H xone:32 I have is an analog mixer. Even those older vestax mixers that didn't have FX were analog, and even if they did doesn't mean they were digital. It could be some of the digital fx are applied to the analog signal chain, leaving the analog signal otherwise unmolested. Or it could be that when activated the analog signal is converted to digital and then back to analog. If the mixer has a digital input selector, then the whole signal may be getting converted to digital no matter fx or not.
So your turntables need phono preamps, your dj mixer has them built in. The mixer has many functions crammed into a small space. It's a phono stage/preamp, a gain stage, a volume controller, and eq. And that's only one channel. So you have all of that (and more) for whatever number of channels, and to top it off they're all being fed from a single power supply.
So the idea I had is to hook up the turntables to proper phono stages, which can range from anywhere from $100 to several thousands. You would indeed need one for each turntable. Instead of having that function performed by a small section of the dj mixer, you are sending it to something that only does that, and does it well. Then you route it back to the mixer, but now no longer connect it to phono, you connect it to line. From there it depends on your mixer how the signal is routed whether the signal turns to digital before again going to analog. Btw, what exact mixer do you have currently? If it has a digital output like coax, hook it up to a proper non-oversampling digital to analog converter and it will likely best your friends setup. Beyond the mixer lie other possibilities of changing/improving the sound. You could send the signal to a tube preamp to give it a more tube like sound. Send it to a good amp, different pairs of speakers. If it was my money I'd get an A&H secondhand for £250-ish and look at improving the rest of the audio chain.
Not to discount the fancy rotaries too much. I'm sure at their asking price they have decent parts in them.
Right, OK. Interesting. It#s embarassing. I currently have a GEMINI PS-626 PRO.My amp is a Cambridge Audio A1 v3.0 A-Series Integrated Amplifier into a pair of JBL Control 1 studio monitors.
jondavey
....SO, also, in general is a stand alone pre-amp going to be better than what you have in your mixer ?
It should, on paper. Can test this weekend and get back to you.
Nothing to be embarrassed about with the Gemini. As long as it does the basics, that's what is important.
The Omnitronix looks good. Though saw someone mention at some point that it's missing channel gain/trim, which can be useful. It would be fun to try in any case! Can't go wrong with A&H stuff. The xone:32 really hits a sweet spot for me, knobs not crowding each other, has this really cool transmute function. Great eq's. Sounds top notch.
Those JBL monitors are well rated, don't want to take any digs at them as I've not heard them but see they're rather small. I've heard good small speakers but in the end they can only put out so much sound. Have you considered getting something a bit bigger? That might make the most drastic difference in sound. Look at something secondhand, well rated on audio forums, like audiokarma, audiogon, etc. Generally avoid home theatre stuff.. Would think there to be plenty of b&w, Klipsch, wharfdale speakers up for grabs in the uk. Though even with those you have to be picky!! Plenty of other brands to look at, JBL, advent, klh, older altec. Be patient, do your research on any prospects. Reach out if you have questions. For £200 you should be able to find something really nice, but may have to be patient for the right thing to come up. Beyond that, preamps and amps can make a difference when you're talking about sparkly highs and all that, but the Cambridge you have is decent. Does that have a phono input on the back of it?
arteom
Does that have a phono input on the back of it?
Yeah it has phono channels...
As far as speakers. I used to have this bose sub woofer that had an amp and outlets that were supposed to go to 5 of those small cube speakers, but I connected it up to a big old 'Realistic' . The bose sub woofer would throw things fowards when the bass note kicked it, if you positioned them in front of the driver ! But it wass too much. I have some very fussy neighbours, so the little JBLs I have now are ok. But even though I might not be able to up the volume, I'm always looking to get the best possible sound quality that I can.
So I did the test I had mentioned, trying a separate phono stage with my dj mixer - a A&H Xone:32. The 32 was one level above the very basic two channel model, the xone:22. The turntable had a Shure M44G cart with Nagaoka tips, this was middle of the road cart back when Shure still made them. The dj mixer then goes to a preamp, then a power amp. The separate phono pre I have is a Paul Hynes Design tube phono stage. This stage I got secondhand, even then it was one of the more expensive audio purchases I had made. Anyway, I would try a track with turntable hooked up directly to the dj mixer's phono input (how it's normally hooked up), then try it with the turntable hooked to the separate stage (connected to the line input of the dj mixer), switch the dj mixer from phono to line and listen to the same track again.
The results were pretty clear. My dj mixer's built-in phono stage accentuates the bottom end noticeably, leaving the rest of spectrum sounding a bit slouched (duller) compared to the Paul Hynes phono stage. Using the separate stage connected to the mixer's line input yields a flatter response, at the same time more lively. I could actually turn up the gain a bit more as the bottom end isn't pushing the signal into red prematurely. The bottom was more controlled, better definition throughout the spectrum, more open top end. I didn't feel that the bottom end was lacking when using the separate stage but it's worth mentioning that this particular phono stage is no slouch. A well defined bottom end is a difference you might find between basic and mid-level phone stages. The more you pay better things sound, generally speaking.
There's a few things to consider here. The separate stage is still routed to the DJ mixer, which will limit its sound quality. The separate stage sounds better if I route it directly to my pre-amp (skipping the mixer), but that is of little use if I want to use it for djing. That said, the difference in sound quality is still noticeable on my mixer. I'd wager there to be a difference even in more expensive mixers, no matter the price they can only dedicate so much physical space for the phono stage. Besides that you have to consider the cost to benefit ratio. Your very basic phono stages from likes of Projekt, Schiit, Cambridge start around $150-200. You would need two, one for each turntable. Would those give a noticeable bump in sound quality? Maybe, I couldn't say. Besides the moneys, you also have these two additional things which you have to place somewhere near your turntables, plug in, turn on when you want to use your system. They sure as hell wouldn't be worth lugging around. It should also be said that the difference I heard could likely be matched by using more expensive needles. Though whatever those might be would still improve if run through a decent separate phono stage, I would wager.
So is it worth it?? Eh, it's a bit of a rabbit hole. You might appreciate the difference for a few weeks. No one else will care. I could just as easily live with the built in phono stage in my xone:32. To me personally the more attractive option would be the DIY route. Find a decent phono design, build and place two of them in a single chassis. It would be fun as a proof of concept if nothing else. I might actually look into this as I have a suitable chassis. A worthwhile effort if I can get away with $100-150 in parts.
