Hidden track durations

Perhaps this is a question for the Discogs Development forum, but for the longest time, I've been entering hidden tracks like this:

10.1 Title1 (5:01)
10.2 Title2 (3:22)

with a note saying something like "Track 10 has a total duration of 10:23 and consists of the listed track Title1 (5:01), followed by 2:00 of silence, followed by unlisted track Title2 (3:22)."

I was about to do it yet again when I thought I'd take another quick look at the guidelines, and I see I've apparently been doing it wrong?

12.17.2. Hidden tracks on CDs are usually made as one audio track with two songs/tunes and an area of blank space in between. List a hidden track on a CD like so:

1 A Song (7:54)
2 The Other Song (6:43)
3.1 A Final Song (14:29)
3.2 The Hidden Song (6:08)

And add a small explanation to the release notes, for example: "Track 3 contains a hidden track (track 3.2). Track 3.1 lasts for 7:13 before a period of silence."


In other words it looks like the listed track's duration is supposed to be the complete duration of listed track, plus the silence, plus the unlisted track. Then the unlisted track's duration is printed separately.

Is this how everyone else has been doing it? Because it seems weird to me.

^^ nice catch.

Everyone seems to do it the other way that I've seen. Somehow integrating the silence into the tracklist seems a good idea to me.

mjb
In other words it looks like the listed track's duration is supposed to be the complete duration of listed track, plus the silence, plus the unlisted track. Then the unlisted track's duration is printed separately. ... it seems weird to me.

Articuno
Somehow integrating the silence into the tracklist seems a good idea to me.

Agreed, it does look weird. It would make the most sense to list the duration of the 1st song, instead of the duration of the whole track.

When audio is included after a series of short silent tracks on a CD, the silence should be listed explicitly, according to the guidelines:

3 A Final Song (7:13)
4-98 (no audio)
99 The Hidden Song (6:08)

So I think the guidelines should be changed to allow (or even require?) the same format when all are on one track:

3.1 A Final Song (7:13)
3.2 (no audio) (1:08)
3.3 The Hidden Song (6:08)

So if we got a tracklisting like

3.1 A Final Song (7:13)
3.2 (no audio) (1:08)
3.3 The Hidden Song (6:08)

what does the CD player display, the total track time or just 3.1 + 3.2?

I also do it the same way as you mjb. It just seems counterintuitive to enter the full track duration for the first song within the track and then list an extra time for the second time. If I looked at the tracklist for this:

1 A Song (7:54)
2 The Other Song (6:43)
3.1 A Final Song (14:29)
3.2 The Hidden Song (6:08)

I would assume that track 3 lasts a total 20:37, not just 14:29.

rassel
what does the CD player display, the total track time or just 3.1 + 3.2?

This always confuses me. Does (no audio) mean that there is 1:08 of silence? Why not just use (silence)?

The problem is that there are really 2 tracklists:

1. The one on the CD, determined by the table of contents.
2. The one on the artwork.

Discogs has not come up with a system to effectively merge the two.

In some cases there are more tracks in the CD TOC than on the artwork. In other cases there are more tracks on the artwork than on the CD.

Along with silence in the middle of a track, there is also gaps between tracks (silent or not) to consider.

For start tracklist should be something like this maybe:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/503/72440143.png

In this image there are 4 tracks on the artwork and 6 tracks on the CD. The representation makes it possible to see that all at a glance. I gave numbers to the artwork tracks, they could be given differently in several ways:
1a, 1b, 2, 3
OR
1a, 1b, 2-5, 6

If there's a hidden track at the start, entered as track 0.

rassel
what does the CD player display, the total track time or just 3.1 + 3.2?

Total track time

Myriad
This always confuses me. Does (no audio) mean that there is 1:08 of silence? Why not just use (silence)?

A CD track listed as "(no audio)" could probably be either silence or an empty track (duration = 0 seconds).
To avoid confusion it may be better to use "(silence)" for silence (duration > 0 seconds) and "(no audio)" for empty tracks (duration 0 seconds). Then again, it makes submitting more complicated if both can be used.

But in within a single track, using "(silence)" makes the most sense:
3.1 A Final Song (7:13)
3.2 (silence) (1:08)
3.3 The Hidden Song (6:08)

Ronaldvd
Total track time

Ok, but wouldn't it make more sense to add something like:

3 A Final Song (14.29)
3.1 A Final Song (7:13)
3.2 (silence) (1:08)
3.3 The Hidden Song (6:08)

If we add another duration than the player shows this might lead to misunderstandings.

rassel
3 A Final Song (14.29)
3.1 A Final Song (7:13)
3.2 (silence) (1:08)
3.3 The Hidden Song (6:08)

Repeating the same title twice does look a bit superfluous.

rassel
If we add another duration than the player shows this might lead to misunderstandings.

Maybe, but if track durations are listed on the cover of the release it will not list the total time either. It will list the duration of the song, not the total track.